Could we criticize critics???

42 respuestas
    #9
    WaltZalenski
    en respuesta a Paco Higón

    Re: Could we criticize critics???

    Ver mensaje de Paco Higón

    Paco, based only on what I read on the Squires website, your characterization is incomplete. It seems the claim was not merely that there is anti-Parker comments or sentiment on verema, but that there is also lack of ";freedom";, ";discrimination";, and censure and threats of expulsion for disagreeing with anti-Parker comments or sentiment. (Anti-Parker comments or sentiment alone exists even on the Squires website, which appears somehow affiliated with Parker and the Wine Advocate.)

    Given my poor Spanish language skills, I have not invested the time to read the tons of material in the Spanish forum to know whether those allegations are true, so I express no opinion as to whether they are. (Although I have not witnessed at hint of it here on what is sometimes called the ";civilized"; side of the website.) Indeed, even if I invested that time, it may well be the case that censure and threats of expulsion would be not be printed on-line. Again, I do not know. Your narrow question, however, is easy to answer. In fact, the question answers itself. Parker’s business only is the writing of opinion, and he can expect opinion in return. Of course, he also has criticized other wine critics.

    I cannot disagree with rayol who remarks here that being ";anti-Parker"; just because he is influential or American is small minded and pathetic. But again, whether that is a common view on the Spanish forum, I cannot say.

    As evidenced by certain recent media about wine, however, it does seem true that a school of wine conservatism has somehow blended with anti-Americanism and anti-globalism and targeted Parker as the cause for an imagined great crisis in the wine world. I think this trend is great because it is amusing to see books, movies, and articles in general magazines addressing wine issues.

    On the other hand, I generally feel that these anti-Parkerists usually are substantively silly. Some fanatics almost seem to profess that they dislike every wine that Parker likes. Somehow I doubt these people would really spit out as undrinkable the 1961 Latour a Pomerol, the 1990 La Tache, and the 1998 Chateau Beaucastel Chateauneuf du Pape Hommage A Jacques Perrin (all, Parker 100-point wines). Even if the fanatics concede this point, they might nevertheless insist that enjoying a 1997 Harlan Estate or a 2001 Greenock Creek Shiraz will cause the world to world to spiral into a carnival of human depravity. Or so it sometimes seems.

    More substantively, the prime argument of this strain of Parker critics is that Parker’s influence is one of homogenization, that all wine is becoming the same style. But, at least in the case of Spain, the reality is that the variety and diversification of artisanal wine is greater than it ever was. Twenty years ago, where were the well-made Mencias and Bobals, the quality Priorats and Toros, and the countless other Spanish wine projects that are both new but also grounded in tradition? I think the same is true for other wine-producing countries, but for present purposes, it is sufficient to see that Spain does not fit the mass Esperanto-wine theory. (Was it La Rochefoucauld who said that there is nothing more horrible than the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts?)

    As I said before, I have no idea whether this type of anti-Parker view is prevalent on verema. If it is, and there is an open exchange of views, I think that is great. Such debate is interesting and entertaining in its own right. It is even more entertaining for me since I know that many of the people who are seduced by such polemics in reality would prefer to be sipping Cirsion. Irony sometimes comes in delicious flavors. ;-)

    #10
    Paco Higón
    en respuesta a WaltZalenski

    Re: Could we criticize critics???

    Ver mensaje de WaltZalenski

    But what can I say about this…. It makes no sense that one of the forum administrators denies such a comment. Of course I do not feel like a strict censor, I just try to avoid bad manners, insults and fallacies…. But a forum needs some moderation…. Or not?

    Moreover, I’m not an anti-Parker but I’m not a pro-Parker…. I agree with him sometimes, some others not… but is the same with Jancis Robinson, Stephen Tanzer, Hugh Johnson or any other critic…. I’m a little bit worried, I must confess, with the excessive prominence of his opinions… and that’s all… there’s nothing more.

    Hope someday we can talk about more interesting questions drinking a nice bottle of (why not) Cirsion or some other nice wine (not necessarily Spanish…;-))

    #11
    MCamblor
    en respuesta a WaltZalenski

    Let’s see...

    Ver mensaje de WaltZalenski

    ";Paco, based only on what I read on the Squires website, your characterization is incomplete. It seems the claim was not merely that there is anti-Parker comments or sentiment on verema, but that there is also lack of ";freedom";, ";discrimination";, and censure and threats of expulsion for disagreeing with anti-Parker comments or sentiment.";

    The fact of the matter is, Walt, that the characterization on the Squires board is also incomplete. The person who posted the accusations against the administrators of Verema and myself was conveniently leaving out the reasons why he was privately admonished by the Verema team. In every forum there are clearly-stated rules. One of them, which, as far as I can tell, is common to every single forum in which I’ve participated, is a ";no flame"; policy. This guy was very quick with ad hominem attacks on fellow forum denizens, something which is in clear contravention to the rules. I should know, I was one of the ones who had plenty of reasons to complain about being subjected to constant harrassment by this individual.

    When asked to back up his personal attacks with facts, or, at any rate, to substantiate some rather outlandish claims he made with some evidence (even anecdotical stuff would have done), invariably, this person never really ";put up";.

    As far as I can tell (and Paco could speak to this better than I can, since I am not involved in moderating Verema), admonitions to this individual were delivered privately, with one last warning being posted openly on the forum. But in no way were valid opinions about wine or, for that matter, Mr. Parker, censored. There was simply an enforcement of the rules of the forum.

    Of course, one could argue that this is just the case ";as I witnessed it"; and I canot be plaintiff-defendant and judge at the smae time.

    I cannot disagree with rayol who remarks here that being ";anti-Parker"; just because he is influential or American is small minded and pathetic. But again, whether that is a common view on the Spanish forum, I cannot say.

    Here, regardless of all preconceptions osme folks have about me and my position vis à vis Mr. Parker or, for that matter, The Wine Spectator, the current incarnation fo the RVF and, say, Decanter, I think we agree. To dismiss a person and his/her views on account of national origin is not only idiotic, it is truly dangerous. But don’t worry, I won’t mention any of those all-too-familiar thread-killing names from History...

    The ";influence"; head is far too complex. One should not resent Mr. Parker for the prominence he has achieved. Alas, there is a legitimate right some of us have to question where his influence has become excessive. As long as we recognize that the ";influence"; thing cuts two ways and that in order for Mr. Parker to have ";influence"; there must be some parties willing to be ";influenced,"; our argument will be a healthy one.

    What I am most deeply concerned about these days is that Mr. Parker’s favor is seen by some in the industry as a be-all-end-all in the marketing of a wine. This tends to limit the way wine is made and marketed all over the world, whether we care to recognize it or not. Given the speed at which information travels, there is no wine-producing region in the world upon which the discourse generasted by and around Mr. Parker does not wield some sort of power. We can react pro- or contra-Parker, but we have to deal with the fact that these ays there is a very big chance that he is always already where we go to find wine, coloring winemaking and wine judgment one way or another.

    We can’t resent Mr. Parker directly for this, let me be clear. At least I would never do such a thing. But I do have to recognize, in the face of millions of shelf-talkers with points and a logo on them (something of which Mr. Parker is on the record as disapproving), that his

    #12
    MCamblor
    en respuesta a MCamblor

    Re: Let’s see... (Conclusion)

    Ver mensaje de MCamblor

    As evidenced by certain recent media about wine, however, it does seem true that a school of wine conservatism has somehow blended with anti-Americanism and anti-globalism and targeted Parker as the cause for an imagined great crisis in the wine world. I think this trend is great because it is amusing to see books, movies, and articles in general magazines addressing wine issues.

    I finally saw Mondovino the other day. An awful movie, really. Where I agree with many of Mr. Nossiter’s views about the state of the wine industry today, his delivery was painfully shoddy. Those 2 and a half hours could have been better used.

    Oh, and for the record, I think Mr. Parker came off remarkably well in the movie; a charming man who stands by his views and speaks them very articulately.

    The hole trying to pigeonhole people into factions, complte with white hats and black hats, is what is truly ludicrous. Over on the Spanish side I’ve been expressing my fatigue with being a ";good guy’ or a ";bad guy"; a lot lately. For some reason, the whole thing reeks of doxa and I, like the great master Roland Barthes, feel horribly oppressed and depressed when doxa or, if you will, dogmatism, or any kind of arrogant discourse, rears its ugly head.

    On the other hand, I generally feel that these anti-Parkerists usually are substantively silly. Some fanatics almost seem to profess that they dislike every wine that Parker likes.

    Hey, he likes Haut-Brion. And I gather from a certain source that he has a shine for 1947 Bosconia (the rumor is as yet unconfirmed by the man himself). He can’t be all that bad...:-)

    ...Homogenization.

    Sorry, my friend, but I am one of the nonbelievers in the great hterogeneity of Spanish wine these days. Too much of it is made, regardless of regional origin, in the same style: Superripe, low in acid, high in alcohol, superextracted and front-loaded with new French oak, unfined, unfiltered, etc. There are vast nmbers of examples of this coming from all points of Spain. That the wines manage to exhibit some sort of difference, given the wholesale adoption of those growing and vinification techniques is nothing short of a miracle. Sure, it can say ";Priorat,"; or ";Jumilla,"; or ";Yecla,"; or ";Alicante,"; or ";Utiel-Requena"; on the label but, if the differences between wines are almost imperceptible, what does it matter?

    As I said It is even more entertaining for me since I know that many of the people who are seduced by such polemics in reality would prefer to be sipping Cirsion. Irony sometimes comes in delicious flavors. ;-)

    Make that Cirsion an ’86 Clos Saint-Hune, or a ’62 Viña Real, or an ’88 Mugnier Musigny and we’re in business. No ideology, just truly great wine we can perhaps agree upon. And hopefully eat with.

    Best,

    Manuel

    #13
    JoanF
    en respuesta a WaltZalenski

    Re: Could we criticize critics???

    Ver mensaje de WaltZalenski

    Hi Walt,

    About this debate I have not much to say. Only what is related to myself.

    I don’t like or dislike Parker’s comments, sometimes I agree and sometimes I don’t. That’s what I can say.

    Anyway, this is the same I have to say about Peñín (but actually I agree less), or any other wine guide, like Gourmets Guide in Spain. I found myself agreeing more or less with guides or critics, but I’m sure I’m finding my own taste way and vision of wines. That is what I think a wine aficionado may do. To define his own palate and to respect the others palates.

    I find Parker position very good, as he is receiving a fee from the producer about each wine he tastes…. So, this is really an independent position. His importance is the importance the market has given. It is not fair to blame him.

    After all, I cannot enjoy the Tondonia as others do, and this don’t worry me at all. I enjoy my Mas d’en Compte Blanc, Roigenc, Màrtius, Clos Mogador, AN in my way…. Perhaps I will enjoy Tondonia in the future as much as I do with other wines, and I may. Anyway I’m always open to try new things, but I have some ‘secure value’ wines.

    Regarding Verema’s position against Parker, IMHO, this is not verema’s position, this is the position of some forumites, not even a majority, but who express their position more loud and clear compared to others (like myself) who are neutral.

    ….

    Thanks for your patience and forgive my poor English.

    Joan

    #14
    WaltZalenski
    en respuesta a MCamblor

    Re: Let’s see... (Conclusion)

    Ver mensaje de MCamblor

    Yes, it is virtually a given that the characterization on the Squires board also is incomplete. Thanks for being a testifying ";witness"; to what was going on. I certainly agree that ad hominem attacks on participants should not be tolerated.

    Regarding Parker, I’m a strong believer in questioning authority generally, although ’questioning’ is distinct from automatic, knee-jerk disagreement. As you know, authority in this context can have at least two distinct meanings. One is rule based, for example the authority of the state to demand that you pay taxes, but the other is a matter of earned influence alone. In this sense, Parker is an authority (in the sense that he has become influential) but he has zero authority (that is, no power to impose his will). It is healthy to question both types authority, but I think some people have the misapprehension that Parker speaks about wine with all the authority of Minos sending a damned soul down to the lowest level of hell. This, I need hardly tell you, is supreme bollocks. Indeed, I find it extraordinary that Parker does not even publish bad reviews anymore. If a wine is not ";recommended"; as at least pretty good, Parker offers only silence. (I disagree with Parker’s silence policy, incidentally, not that what I think should make any difference to the way he conducts his affairs).

    On the subject of homogenization, I note that you did not answer my question: ";Twenty years ago, where were the well-made Mencias and Bobals, the quality Priorats and Toros, and the countless other Spanish wine projects that are both new but also grounded in tradition?"; I can agree with your propositions that quite a few Spanish wines emanating from disparate regions are similarly styled and that one can easily find some overpriced cliches if you can agree with mine that the variety and diversification of artisanal wine in Spain has never been greater.

    As for that bottle of wine to share, Manuel, I have both the 2001 Cirsion and the 62 Viña Real at home. Variety and diversity are good things.

    #15
    WaltZalenski
    en respuesta a JoanF

    Re: Could we criticize critics???

    Ver mensaje de JoanF

    Thank you very much for your perspective, Joan.

    I think most people regard Parker as you do. He, like other critics, can be helpful to you as a consumer, but it is certain that your tastes and his will not always be the same. I think it is a myth that there are millions of mindless consumers with no opinion or taste who only like what Parker tells them to like.

    I have enjoyed Tondonia quite often, but it certainly is not my favorite wine either. It is sometimes said jokingly (here in the US, at least) that Tondonia tastes like a dead horse that was burried years ago and recently dug up. Bosconia, however, typically is a horse of a different color.

    #16
    WaltZalenski
    en respuesta a Paco Higón

    Re: Could we criticize critics???

    Ver mensaje de Paco Higón

    ";Of course I do not feel like a strict censor, I just try to avoid bad manners, insults and fallacies….";

    Paco, bad manners and insults should be restricted. I laughed, however, when I saw the reference to censoring fallacies, a term I understand as relating to logic as opposed to statements that are merely factually false. If fallacies were censored on verema, both fora would have a lot of empty white space! Certainly a good number of my messages would be deleted.

    But I know what you meant.

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